How does former foreign affairs minister John Manley see America today?

There aren’t many Canadian politicians who have had more experience dealing with the United States than former deputy prime minister John Manley. Whether it was as minister of finance, foreign affairs, or industry, Manley was always trying to find constructive partnerships south of the border. After 9/11, Prime Minister Jean Chrétien put him in charge of border security, and he established such a good working relationship with President George W. Bush’s homeland security czar Tom Ridge, that both men are still great friends 25 years later. Heck, one of Manley’s kids lives in the U.S., and he’s even got two American-born grandchildren. So, how does he feel about America today on its 250th birthday? As they say on Facebook about relationships: it’s complicated.

Steve Paikin: What do you think is worth celebrating on America’s 250th birthday?

John Manley: When you talk about anniversaries like 250, you have to look at 250 years, not just the last two. Let’s face it, they have great, I’ll call it, mythology, which doesn’t mean it wasn’t true. The founding stories are amazing. And when you think of the people who were involved at that time in the 18th century — Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, Hamilton — these were Renaissance men who created a vibrant democracy and were way ahead of political developments elsewhere in the world. They’ve made their mistakes along the way, but they’ve got an amazing history. And so, I think it’s important for us to remember that, as obnoxious as most of us probably feel the current president is, he doesn’t represent America. When the balance of powers works, it’s a very effective way of controlling autocratic impulses. Whether it can survive the current president is what we’re all waiting to see.

SP: Can I get you to compare and contrast how well you feel you were able to work with your American counterparts a quarter century ago versus what today’s political leaders in this country have to work with today?

JM: It was a total contrast, Steve. I don’t think that George W. Bush was terribly popular in Canada, but let’s recognize the reality: 9/11 was a traumatic event. Canadians rallied in support. We had 100,000 people on Parliament Hill. You couldn’t buy a U.S. flag in Ottawa in those days because everybody wanted one. There was a real sense of commitment and unity. My counterpart (on border security) was Tom Ridge. He’s my friend to this day. In our first meeting, he made it clear that, as governor of Pennsylvania, he knew that Canada was his largest trading partner internationally. And he told me that the president’s instructions to him were, “Keep us safe, but don’t interfere with trade.” So we were starting from a totally different place. It was a different way of dealing with the world, showing respect for other countries, certainly showing respect for Canada as a sovereign nation. I don’t know how Prime Minister Mark Carney has these meetings with President Donald Trump and keeps his breakfast down.

SP: Do you think there’s anybody in the Canadian government who has a comparable relationship with anybody in the current U.S. administration to what you had back then?

JM: I doubt it very much because I think most of the members of the current administration are very much subject to the whims of Trump. I remember our finance minister of the time, Bill Morneau, attended the wedding of the Secretary of the Treasury, who would be his counterpart, Steven Mnuchin. I don’t think anyone’s attending any weddings in the U.S. with their counterparts these days.

SP: Do you like the United States these days?

JM: I have very mixed feelings about it. First of all, true confession: my daughter lives in Seattle with her family. I have two grandsons who are U.S. born, dual citizens. And quite frankly, in their community, in Seattle, Washington, in their social circles, their employment circles, I don’t think they know a single person who voted for Donald Trump. So America is divided. There are things that make me uncomfortable. The proliferation of firearms, the aggressiveness of the MAGA movement, the sense that it’s not just America first, but the disrespect for others. I don’t like that. Most of the Americans I know — and I know quite a number — they say, “We’re so sorry! It shouldn’t be happening. We don’t approve of it. We never voted for any of this.”

SP: But half of the country seems content to let Trump get away with pretty much whatever he wants to get away with, which doesn’t just include bad decisions related to governing, but also a level of personal grift that is off the scales. How does he manage to get away with that?

JM: Well, I think that he’s followed a script, you know? You begin with, the bigger the lie, the more likely people are to believe it. He’s methodically attacked the independent media. He’s attacked the courts. He’s stacked the Supreme Court. He’s attacked the universities. He’s managed to either eliminate most of his internal opposition or intimidated them into toeing the line. I mean, this is a script that autocrats have followed elsewhere in the world. It’s always treacherous ground when you compare anything to Germany in the 1930s because people look and they say, “Well, I don’t see any Auschwitz here.” But Auschwitz didn’t happen right away. It took time. And I think it’s important to remember that the National Socialists were elected in Germany. And they took their foothold in the Reichstag and, gradually, by attacking the media and telling the biggest lies possible — that all of their woes were brought on by the Versailles Treaty and the Jews — you find a scapegoat.

SP: How truly democratic is the U.S. today?

JM: We need to remember that every institution has some fragility to it. And that it requires all of us to remain vigilant. Democracy is not something to be taken for granted. It takes work. We have to inform people. We have to educate people. Literacy is a prime requirement in a democracy. We have to preserve the independence of voices that can be critical of what those in power are doing, holding them to account. I think (journalist) Anne Applebaum uses the analogy that we tend to think of democracy like we go to the tape in the kitchen and pour ourselves a glass of water. It’s way more complicated than that. It’s like when we had to go up the hill to the well and pump some water out in order to get a drink. That’s what democracy is. It requires work.

SP: As you look around the world, do you see any countries that are genuinely allied with the United States, inasmuch as, they genuinely like them and look to the United States for direction, leadership, and inspiration?

JM: Nobody in what we would have called The Free World is interested in following Trump or emulating him. If anything, the intellectual leader of the free world right now is our own prime minister, Mark Carney, partly because of one speech (in Davos), but also because his demeanour and his intellect have made him respected in other democracies around the world.

SP: Does Trump represent an exception to whatever America has been? Or is he the new normal, and we need to get used to this kind of approach to us for the foreseeable future?

JM: We don’t know whether we’re on a pendulum or a continuum. Most of my American friends say, don’t worry, we’re on a pendulum. I prefer to believe we’re on a pendulum. And, oh, by the way, everything that Donald Trump has said about Canada is not untrue. We have been free riders on defence. We had a tendency to sit at the G7 table, and just when the waiter was coming with the bill, we’d excuse ourselves and go to the washroom.

SP: You and I both remember the days of Ronald Reagan and George Bush, the father, and Brian Mulroney; or Bill Clinton and George W. Bush and Jean Chrétien; or Barack Obama and Joe Biden and Justin Trudeau. The leaders seemed not only to work well together, but they also actually seemed to like each other. Can you imagine us ever getting back to that?

JM: It’s very personal, Steve. I think it depends on who the characters are. And it’s not all about trade. It’s actually, how do we partner in the bigger world to make things happen? There’s no such thing as a superpower in this world that has no allies. And I’m hoping that the United States is recognizing that to really help shape the world that we live in, in a positive way, they need allies and they are not going to find a more like-minded, and supportive one than Canada.